Arguing with Atheists

Eric · 10-05-2008, 10:19 AM

I thought I'd copy and paste my response to a current discussion on my other website.

I'd appreciate any additional ammunition and thoughts, including citations to scripture suggesting that the existence of God is apparent and obvious from everyday life.

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Originally Posted by Idiom

Doesn't matter who or how many people believe in this ****, it doesn't make it any more true.

It's all mythology and you can't prove any different no matter who many names you parade out and claim they were religious.

Originally Posted by Eric (LFG)
What amazes me about you is how strongly you will argue your beliefs when you can't prove or disprove your beliefs either.

Regarding whether God exists, there are three different beliefs you can neither prove or disprove logically:

1. Atheism, which you believe in.

2. God, who I believe in as Jehovah, the God of Abraham, the one and same God that Jews, Christians, and Muslims all believe in (it's just most of the other details vary between these religions). You can believe in this God without having to answer the question "if God exists, who created God", since it doesn't matter, he could have always existed and the solution to his creation could be a matter we haven't thought of or can't comprehend, or as Aristotle theorized, God could be the Unmoved mover.

3. Solipsism, which can be boiled down to the iron clad logical claim that YOU are god, and you can't prove otherwise. The world is merely a figment of your imagination, created by your subconscious for your entertainment. You can't prove that anything exists outside of your own consciousness, or that I typed these words here rather than them being a creation of your own mind.

Now, if you want to argue logic, let's do that.

1. As a committed atheist, one of two things will happen when you die: You will either die again after you die on this Earth, and thereafter spend eternity burning in a lake of fire, or, as you believe, you will cease to exist because you have no soul. So as an atheist, when you die, you lose no matter which of us are correct.

2. As a born again Christian who tries to follow the teachings and examples of Jesus in my everyday life, one of two things will happen when I die. If you are right, I will cease to exist when I die. But even if that is the case, my life will not have been wasted, since I spent it (since the day I was "saved" by God's grace) living according to the Golden Rule, being kind, and serving others. In that capacity, I will have been much nicer to people than you've been, based on your closed minded beliefs that disrespect all other belief systems. On the other hand, if I'm right, I get to spend eternity in paradise while I look across the great void and watch you burning in your lake of fire. So under my belief system, any way you score it, logic dictates I have a 50% chance of being right and earning a positive outcome, vs the zero percent chance of a positive outcome you can achieve under your atheist beliefs.

3. As a solipsist, the world will brand you an idiot, which will make your life difficult until you die. Under this system, it is uncertain whether you will die, or if the rest of the world will disappear and cease to exist when you do. Good luck with that one.

Based on the three choices and outcomes above, it seems to me that the smartest and most logical people are Christians. Wise men chose Christ!

Duo · 10-05-2008, 12:48 PM

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1. As a committed atheist, one of two things will happen when you die: You will either die again after you die on this Earth, and thereafter spend eternity burning in a lake of fire, or, as you believe, you will cease to exist because you have no soul. So as an atheist, when you die, you lose no matter which of us are correct.

Death is not win or lose, it's just another phase in life.

So no atheist who die do not lose, nor will they burn in hell or w/e BS propaganda you say ( and that was propaganda btw )

Here is a question for you; If two people live their lives, one is kind, servers others, and more or less is just a good person, it just so happens that he's an atheist. He doesn't believe in any spirit or force guiding him, he just is aware of his surroundings and acts on what he thinks is right.

Now the other person crucifies people, punishes them with beatings, burns them, murders them, all in the name of God, he does what a book tells him to do and does so without question or doubt, he "cleanses" sinners so that they may see God. He calls himself a Christian.

Which person do you think is right?

This is a situation happening almost ever day, albeit in a much less extreme case, what I mean is you have people doing good things all the time that do not label themselves as "christian", and then you have people who call themselves christians, but do not see that they are just closed minded drones.

You do not hafta be a Christian to live a good life, and saying otherwise is just arrogant.

Eric · 10-05-2008, 01:17 PM

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Originally Posted by Duo

Here is a question for you; If two people live their lives, one is kind, servers others, and more or less is just a good person, it just so happens that he's an atheist. He doesn't believe in any spirit or force guiding him, he just is aware of his surroundings and acts on what he thinks is right.

Now the other person crucifies people, punishes them with beatings, burns them, murders them, all in the name of God, he does what a book tells him to do and does so without question or doubt, he "cleanses" sinners so that they may see God. He calls himself a Christian.

Which person do you think is right?

Under my belief system, neither of those people will be with God when they leave this earth.

Salvation requires belief in God and Jesus, so the Atheist will not go to Heaven, regardless of his good acts. Being saved requires faith, which the atheist doesn't have.

My opinion is that the person in your second example will not go to Heaven either, but for a different reason than you suspect. In the first place, nowhere in the New Testament does it promote or encourage these things you described:

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crucifies people, punishes them with beatings, burns them, murders them, all in the name of God, he does what a book tells him to do and does so without question or doubt, he "cleanses" sinners so that they may see God.

In my opinion, anyone doing those things would not have a personal relationship with Jesus, or be filled with the Holy Spirit, in my comprehension that would be impossible. So in your second example, that person would not go to heaven because they are not saved by Grace, despite any mistaken notions they may have about that point.

I do not believe that there are any Christians in modern times who murder people because they have different beliefs. Even if you could point out someone who did that and labeled himself a Christian, that person would not be a brother of mine, nor would he share my beliefs or understand the teachings and examples of Jesus.

Just because someone calls themselves a Christian doesn't make them a Christian.

Lewz · 10-05-2008, 01:36 PM

LFG/Eric if your going to identify yourself a Christian you need to accept the fact that you don't have the wisdom, or the right to condemn anyone to heaven or hell...period

Eric · 10-05-2008, 03:07 PM

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Originally Posted by Lewz

LFG/Eric if your going to identify yourself a Christian you need to accept the fact that you don't have the wisdom, or the right to condemn anyone to heaven or hell...period

I'm not condemning anyone, nor do I have the power to do so.

When I talk about who is going to heaven and who isn't, I'm talking about what it says in the Bible, based on mainstream Christian interpretation of the Bible.

I'm not sure anyone who has at least read the four Gospels plus Acts could or would disagree with any point I made in the first post of this thread.

The most central, core belief of Christianity is that you must belief in Jesus to go to Heaven. Do you disagree with that?

Nothing I said above amounts to condemnation of anyone, these are mainstream opinions repeated daily on Christian talk radio and in blogs.

Duo · 10-05-2008, 04:32 PM

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Originally Posted by Eric

The most central, core belief of Christianity is that you must belief in Jesus to go to Heaven. Do you disagree with that?

What if said person does not know about Christianity? Would they still be saved?

I do not disagree per se, I just believe that you should be judged by your actions, not what ( or who ) you believe in.

I think Jesus is a very good role model to follow, but I would not just blindly follow his teachings is all. Not saying that you do, just saying in general.

Eric · 10-05-2008, 07:07 PM

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Originally Posted by Duo

I do not disagree per se, I just believe that you should be judged by your actions, not what ( or who ) you believe in.

Ah, a central, accepted belief by most Christians (on the best of my understanding, feel free to dispute) is that you only need faith to achieve salvation, and that acts without faith will not earn you a place in Heaven.

I'm just trying to explain what Scripture says, to the best of my ability. The New Testament is very clear that you need to believe in Jesus and accept Him as your Savior to go to Heaven. It's not phrased as an option or a multiple choice.

Duo · 10-06-2008, 12:11 AM

My belief is that if I see someone hungry on the street, I'll feed them.

I won't feed them because Jesus told me too, or because scripture says I should, I will feed them because they are hungry, and when I'm hungry I want food, so naturally I assume other people do too.

So, why does my way of thinking have an implied lesser sense of value then yours?

You feed them because that is what Jesus would do, I feed them because they are hungry and need food, but the result is still the same, they get food and are no longer hungry.

So, from what you say, Since I do not do it for Jesus, or in faith, that I won't be accepted into your club? I find that hard to believe really, no offense to you bro.

It's just that whenever you classify groups into "us" and "them" you automatically become one of "them".

Mr. Harris · 10-06-2008, 12:20 AM

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Originally Posted by Duo

My belief is that if I see someone hungry on the street, I'll feed them.

I won't feed them because Jesus told me too, or because scripture says I should, I will feed them because they are hungry, and when I'm hungry I want food, so naturally I assume other people do too.

So, why does my way of thinking have an implied lesser sense of value then yours?

You feed them because that is what Jesus would do, I feed them because they are hungry and need food, but the result is still the same, they get food and are no longer hungry.

So, from what you say, Since I do not do it for Jesus, or in faith, that I won't be accepted into your club? I find that hard to believe really, no offense to you bro.

It's just that whenever you classify groups into "us" and "them" you automatically become one of "them".

Specifically Duo, the bible says that only through Christ are we saved. Thusly we are known as "Christians." Therefore according to the bible, no matter how honorable or nice a life you live, if you do not believe that Christ died for your sins, and you have not accepted him into your heart as your saviour, then you are not allowed entry into heaven.

That does not make your actions any less noble or needed, but in the christian belief system only through christ is heaven available, no matter your deeds to the positive or negative.

So it really isn't a matter of how you life your life, your good deeds, how you treat others, but those things along with the acceptance of Christ as your savior and your continual commitment to try to live a "christ-like" existence.

I'm not saying you aren't a great guy, I'm not saying I wouldn't trust you to watch my house if I was leaving town, what I'm saying is that according to my beliefs, and my translation of scripture, what you are doing is not enough.

Easier to understand? Not picking on you at all, just explaining how the christian belief works.

Mr. Harris

Ruzan · 10-06-2008, 07:13 AM

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Originally Posted by Duo

So, why does my way of thinking have an implied lesser sense of value then yours?

So, from what you say, Since I do not do it for Jesus, or in faith, that I won't be accepted into your club? I find that hard to believe really, no offense to you bro.

Your way has no lesser sense of value. We do not earn salvation by doing good work.

We cannot "buy" our way into heaven. One cannot purchase their salvation. So yes, you are doing a great deed by feeding the hungry, but there is no leeway in the statement that if you are not saved in the blood of Christ, and you will never enter his Holy kingdom until you are.

10-05-2008, 01:36 PM	#4 (permalink)
Lewz Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Boston Posts: 154 My Photos: (0)	Re: Arguing with Atheists LFG/Eric if your going to identify yourself a Christian you need to accept the fact that you don't have the wisdom, or the right to condemn anyone to heaven or hell...period

10-06-2008, 12:11 AM	#8 (permalink)
Duo Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 135 My Photos: (0)	Re: Arguing with Atheists My belief is that if I see someone hungry on the street, I'll feed them. I won't feed them because Jesus told me too, or because scripture says I should, I will feed them because they are hungry, and when I'm hungry I want food, so naturally I assume other people do too. So, why does my way of thinking have an implied lesser sense of value then yours? You feed them because that is what Jesus would do, I feed them because they are hungry and need food, but the result is still the same, they get food and are no longer hungry. So, from what you say, Since I do not do it for Jesus, or in faith, that I won't be accepted into your club? I find that hard to believe really, no offense to you bro. It's just that whenever you classify groups into "us" and "them" you automatically become one of "them". __________________ Lewz and Jesus are my homeboys. "Imagination and Memory are but one thing, which for diverse considerations have diverse names."