Ghibli

Imagine a tribal person, living in the middle of a south-american rainforest.

-He believes in tree spirits, sun gods, animal gods, ...: He worships several gods.
-He performs pagan rituals involving animal blood and intestines to please those gods, to read the future and to cure illness.
-He snorts mashed/dried tree roots to talk to the tree spirits.
-He has multiple wives, has intercourse with them all, often at the same time and proclaims that this is what the gods told him to do.
-He has never heared of the Gospel of Jesus. He has never been in contact with what we call "civilized man".

This man worships pagan gods, performs pagan rituals, does drugs and commits adultery/supports polygamy. He doesn't know any different and thinks that what he does is right.
He is a happy man, his wives feel honored and are happy that they have a husband that chose them as his wives.
Am I wrong when I say this man will go to hell and burn for all eternity?
Is this justified? No one told him about the ways of Jesus.

PS: As you might have guessed, I am what is considered an atheist. I'd like to think I am tolerant towards all religions that respect other views and do not do harm to others. I have been known to engage in an occasional discussion with people about religion, but I do not seek to convert them or to "show them they are wrong". Before anyone accuses me of trying to start a flame, this is not my intention. The reason for my question is merely to understand how people that follow the path of Jesus feel about this.

Ruzan

.../Looks to see if your name is Lewz or Duo... Nope, your good. (gonna catch hell for that one)

This is one of the most difficult questions I am asked as a Christian and am embarrassingly unable to answer. I will leave this to one of our more educated members.

You bring up a valid story, the only thing I can claim is that by the time Jesus returns, all corners of the earth will have been given the chance to hear and accept or refuse Him.

__________________
"In his heart a man plans his course, but the Lord determines his steps." Proverbs 16:9

Duo

Nuuuu I'm not an atheist . Though I am not Christian either, I believe that there is a God, or some grand designer behind the world, I think nature is way too complicated to not have some kind of designer, or God behind it all.

I have read the bible, and while I think it shows great insight into religion and faith in general, I just cannot turn a blind eye to the fact that it was written by humans, many many years ago, and as such leaves a lot to be desired in todays world, and simply is not an answer to everything, like some people claim.

Also I ask questions, and continue arguments mainly to understand the other side better, though I may not disagree with it, I will always do my best to respect it.

__________________
Lewz and Jesus are my homeboys.
"Imagination and Memory are but one thing, which for diverse considerations have diverse names."

Eric

I can't answer this question, nor can I answer the similar question about what happens to retarded people and very young children who are mentally incapable of comprehending Jesus or receiving His message.

But that question doesn't apply to your personal situation, nor am I trying to answer it.

I'm not able to comprehend and understand everything related to God, such as His ultimate multi-tasking omnipresence. I'm able to read and understand the Bible, and know from what it says that if I sincerely believe in Jesus and accept Him as my savior, then he will prepare a place for me in Heaven and I will join him there in eternity.

To be saved as a Christian, all you need to do is believe what is written about Jesus in the Bible. I believe it with childlike faith at this point, knowing I can never answer many highly technical, logical, and scientific questions that may relate to and arise from my beliefs. I do not need to answer or even consider questions about creationism vs. Darwinism etc. to believe in Jesus and attain salvation. All I need to do is believe, and try and live according to God's will.

__________________

Duo

To be honest all Christians should read this, because it is full of 100% truth and win.

__________________
Lewz and Jesus are my homeboys.
"Imagination and Memory are but one thing, which for diverse considerations have diverse names."

TommyStrand

One day a boy went past a dusty old field with a sheep standing in the middle of it.

The boy looked at the dirty ground and then at the sheep and thought to himself "Wow, how white and clean the sheep is, just look at the dirty ground, while the sheep is all white and pure."

Then suddenly it began to snow, and the boy made another discovery and realized: The sheep that I thought was so clean before, now look dirty compared to the even whiter and cleaner freshly fallen snow.

And the boy learned an important lesson that day.

What can we learn from this story?

The Bible says in Proverbs 20:6a
"Most men will proclaim every one his own goodness"

You see, humans compare themselves to other humans. And we think that compared to this and that person, I am a much better person. We say: "take Hitler for example, or Mao or Jack the Ripper, compared to those guys I am a living saint! Why, even compared to my neighbour and most Christians, I am a very good person."

So when confronted with Christians and the thought of Evil, Sin, Responsebility, Judgement, Heaven and Hell, we conclude with: "why should I be condemned to Hell? If such a place exists then I deserve to go to Heaven!"

The thing is this. When all humans compare themselves with each other, sure you may say that some are "better" then others. But the thing is this. The Bible says that ALL humans have sinned and are filthy and dirty and guilty of breaking Gods Law.


Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:


The Bible says many times that every human has sinned, and continues to do so. What is Sin? Well, God gave us the LAW - 10 basic Commandments which we can read about in Exodus chapter 20 (read chapter 19 for intro if you want):

Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,
Exo 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Exo 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Exo 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Exo 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
Exo 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
Exo 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Exo 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
Exo 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Exo 20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
Exo 20:18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.


In bold are the 10 Commandments, a shortened version is as follows and :

1) You shall have no other gods before me
2) You shall not make a god to suit yourself (this is a long verse and hard to make short =) See Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. and the following verse for the meaning yourself)
3) You shall not take the Name of the Lord your God in vain
4) Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy
5) Honour your father and your mother
6) You shall not kill
7) You shall not commit adultery
8) You shall not steal
9) You shall not lie
10) You shall not covet

Now, this is the summary of the Law that God will use to judge the world.

In Romans chapter 2 we read:
Rom 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
Rom 2:2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
Rom 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Some people then have heard the Law, and some not. The jews and in latter times people from all over the world, have read the Law of God and know it. What about those who have not then?

Well, let us continue to read in Romans chapter 2: from verse 14:
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

The physical Law with the 10 commandments is not the whole Law, the Law included more things as well, and it is written in the bible for us to read. But that is basically just a more detailed explanation of the Law. God has also explained the Law in this way:

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

The Law is therefore loving God and our fellow humans as ourselves. The 10 Commandments and the long list of do's and don't is simply an explanation of the Law - explaining us love.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


So we see that
1) Everyone has sinned
2) Everyone is born with the Law in their hearts. You get the idea- that there is a God who is worthy of worship, that it is wrong to lie, to steal, to murder etc... Everyone knows the Law because it is written in our hearts, and some know it also because they have read the written word of God. Anyway, our conscience testifies within ourselves leaving us feel guilty when we do evil things. It is however easy for humans to do harden their hearts so that they do not hear or agree with the Law anymore. The more evil we do, and the more we neglect our conscience, the harder our hearts become, and the less we feel that there IS a wrong and right etc...
3) Because EVERYONE has sinned, we are all guilty of breaking the Law, and no one can judge or condemn anyone. And everyone is guilty and deserving of Hell.

However, God does not want us to go to hell, after all He made it for the punishment of satan and his angels: (Matthew 25:41)

So knowing that all men were uncapable of helping themselves, God saw it and decided to offer them complete deliverance for free if they wanted it. Isaiah 59 has a great overview of sin and God's intent on help:

Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
Isa 59:3 For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness.
Isa 59:4 None calleth for justice, nor any pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity.
Isa 59:5 They hatch cockatrice' eggs, and weave the spider's web: he that eateth of their eggs dieth, and that which is crushed breaketh out into a viper.
Isa 59:6 Their webs shall not become garments, neither shall they cover themselves with their works: their works are works of iniquity, and the act of violence is in their hands.
Isa 59:7 Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; wasting and destruction are in their paths.
Isa 59:8 The way of peace they know not; and there is no judgment in their goings: they have made them crooked paths: whosoever goeth therein shall not know peace.
Isa 59:9 Therefore is judgment far from us, neither doth justice overtake us: we wait for light, but behold obscurity; for brightness, but we walk in darkness.
Isa 59:10 We grope for the wall like the blind, and we grope as if we had no eyes: we stumble at noonday as in the night; we are in desolate places as dead men.
Isa 59:11 We roar all like bears, and mourn sore like doves: we look for judgment, but there is none; for salvation, but it is far off from us.
Isa 59:12 For our transgressions are multiplied before thee, and our sins testify against us: for our transgressions are with us; and as for our iniquities, we know them;
Isa 59:13 In transgressing and lying against the LORD, and departing away from our God, speaking oppression and revolt, conceiving and uttering from the heart words of falsehood.
Isa 59:14 And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter.
Isa 59:15 Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.
Isa 59:16 And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.

Because of this, Jesus came in the form of man, to live and be tested in all ways as we, but without sinning even once. That way He could die and receive the punishment met for all sins for all of mankind through all time. So Jesus died. But He did not stay dead. He conquered the grave and death and ressurected, now living and telling the whole world to repent from their evil, receive the mercy of God and be cleaned through faith in Him and in His saving work alone.

This is the story of Jesus as He was tortured, killed and ressurected victoriusly:

Isa 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
Isa 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Isa 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.



Conclusion
No one goes to hell because they did not hear about Jesus. They go to hell because of lies, stealing, fornication etc. Furthermore, I believe that someone in the jungle who did not ever hear about Jesus, but who saw that other people did bad things, and he thought it was wrong, and felt that something bigger then what He could create and imagine, was God, and He then longed in his heart to know him, then I think He got saved. First of all, there are many people who have gotten saved because God spoke to them, either Himself or through angles. If God watched this native who searched for Him, who denied the human creations of god and the crodociles who he knows cant be god, no matter what his tribe says, and who feels that hate and murder etc is wrong, and wants to know God, then I am sure God knows about it, and will do as He sees fit. And if that native then is saved, it is because he is sorry for his evil, and feels his need for forgiveness and help by God, then it is the person Jesus Christ who made that available to him through his death on the cross and ressurection.

Ghibli

I could not have wished for a more clear answer, thank you!!

The message behind Christianity is a beautiful one. However it often bothers me to see people abuse certain aspects of their faith. Just take a look at the Westboro Baptist Church. I don't think I'm offending any of you folks when I say "these people abuse their faith", to spread a message of intolerance, hatred and inhumane disrespect.

I will not go into debate about what is right or wrong, but if religion is a message of love and respect, then these people are the exact opposite of that. I cannot even begin to comprehend what motivates them in their ways.

As long as religion is used as a beautiful thing, that preaches love and kindness, then I as an atheist can only cheer it on.

Duo

The only real problem with organized religion is often it not only promotes exclusion, but prevents independent thought. People get lost in their faith and stop thinking for themselves, they start following orders without question, and doing as their told with no thought what-so-ever as to why, and that is a scary situation to be in.

__________________
Lewz and Jesus are my homeboys.
"Imagination and Memory are but one thing, which for diverse considerations have diverse names."

Lewz

I resent that! so wait are you accusing me of being atheist or that i like to flame. Cause im a practicing christian just so you know.

Ghibli

This is one of the main reasons behind why I won't adhere myself to a religion. Most religions (if not all) require you to accept certain statements as fact without offering proof, reason or logic behind it.

These statements are called "dogmas". Wikipedia says the following:

By this I'm not saying that I need proof for everything in order for me to believe in it, but it worries me to know that all religious texts, scriptures and doctrine have been written and told by man, and not by the divine hand of god.

If anything, history has proven that "the word of god" has been used and abused time and time again as excuses to further a certain agenda by using violence, intolerance, war and domination.

The Spanish Inquisition, the Muslim Jihad, the Jewish Milhemet Mitzvah, ...
Many of those cruelties still continue today (9/11, israël/palestine, ...)

For a long time, people in positions of power were also people of high ranking in religion, and abused their position to keep the population uneducated and poor. They would preach love and forgiveness with one voice and angrily condemns sinners with another - and the sinner is always the other guy. They would teach humility, but they would shown nothing but arrogance and self-righteousness.

Imams preaching hatred towards non-muslims, priests sexually abusing children, religious leaders upholding values that say women are inferior, ...

The concept of most religions is a pure one. The wording and execution of those concepts if often alot less pure.