Dont Ask, Dont Tell... at an end?

LFJC · 01-15-2009, 05:39 AM

Our incoming President has declared that it is his intention to end the policy of "dont ask , dont tell" in the military sometime during his first term. He cannot do so unilaterally but with a democratic majority it is expected that such a measure would pass easily.

My question is: What are your thoughts on this? I dont wish to debate the "rightness or wrongness" of homosexuality. What do you think specifically of the policy and should it be removed or allowed to continue.

Bear in mind the following:
1.) There are already many gay people in the military
2.) Standards of conduct would not change.

thoughts?

Eric · 01-19-2009, 04:38 PM

I was in the military.

What you may not understand are the reasons that men in the military don't want openly gay men in the military. Here's why:

When I was in the Army, I had to shower butt naked with 50 other men at the same time. You are assigned to sleeping quarters and have little or no say over who you share quarters with. In basic training and in field exercises, we always had to share open air latrines, without dividers between the commodes.

I don't want to share housing, toilet, and shower facilities with other human beings whose are sexually oriented to my sex. I don't think that's an unreasonable request, seeing as how men and women have had exactly that arrangement since invention of the wall.

So if you allow openly gay men in the military, the next thing you need to do is eliminate female housing, toilet, and shower facilities, and make everything co-ed. Women who say that straight men should be required to shower, defecate, and sleep next to gay men should be required to do the same with straight men. HOW IS THERE A DIFFERENCE?

Straight people have rights too. I have the right not to be required to share intimate hygenic, housing, and toilet facilities with any person who I know is sexually oriented toward people of my sex.

Now, if they provide separate gay and straight housing, I would strongly agree with you that neither I nor any other person has the right to object to that.

I love gay people. Jesus loves gay people. But you do not have the right to make me share communal housing and toilet facilities with openly gay people.

LFJC · 01-20-2009, 04:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric

I was in the military.

What you may not understand are the reasons that men in the military don't want openly gay men in the military. Here's why:

When I was in the Army, I had to shower butt naked with 50 other men at the same time. You are assigned to sleeping quarters and have little or no say over who you share quarters with. In basic training and in field exercises, we always had to share open air latrines, without dividers between the commodes.

I don't want to share housing, toilet, and shower facilities with other human beings whose are sexually oriented to my sex. I don't think that's an unreasonable request, seeing as how men and women have had exactly that arrangement since invention of the wall.

People in the military are ALREADY sharing housing , toilet and shower facilities with people who are gay. This change would not alter that fact, the standard of conduct would not change. For example Im assuming its not allowable to hit on someone in said shower or toilet or whatever. The only difference would be that you wouldnt be thrown out for admitting it. It seems a little naive to think that if we make them hide it that they are not ...er... checkin you out in there anyway.

So if you allow openly gay men in the military, the next thing you need to do is eliminate female housing, toilet, and shower facilities, and make everything co-ed. Women who say that straight men should be required to shower, defecate, and sleep next to gay men should be required to do the same with straight men. HOW IS THERE A DIFFERENCE?

Why does one automatically cause the other? Its not women who somehow called for that separation. Its traditional and doesnt automatically mean you have to tear down all barriers.

I suppose one could argue that , as a male member of the military you would be exposed to it an extremely low percentage of the time whereas the vast majority of people, and one presumes an even higher percentage of military, are heterosexal.

Straight people have rights too. I have the right not to be required to share intimate hygenic, housing, and toilet facilities with any person who I know is sexually oriented toward people of my sex.

So youre perfectly fine showering and using those facilities with a gay man, as long as he doesnt bring it up? I suppose theres a certain comfort in not knowing, I'll concede that. But if conduct standards prevent him from , say, soliciting you, then whats the difference. not to make you uncomfortable, but Im sure you did share those things during your time there didnt you?

Now, if they provide separate gay and straight housing, I would strongly agree with you that neither I nor any other person has the right to object to that.

Hmm thats a really interesting idea. You were in the military, would they do something like that?

I love gay people. Jesus loves gay people. But you do not have the right to make me share communal housing and toilet facilities with openly gay people.

You already did. People in the military do every single day. Youre ok with showering with a gay man if he lies about it, but not if he tells the truth? (For the record it would make me uncomfortable no matter what orientation the guy was. Never understood the need for that , but I digress).

For that matter , is it morally right to REQUIRE people to lie? Interesting. Im sort of playing devil's advocate here, but Im not 100% sure where I stand on this one. I can certainly see your point, as it is a matter of presenting an uncomfortable environment. hmm.

Eric · 01-20-2009, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LFJC

You already did. People in the military do every single day. Youre ok with showering with a gay man if he lies about it, but not if he tells the truth? (For the record it would make me uncomfortable no matter what orientation the guy was. Never understood the need for that , but I digress).

For that matter , is it morally right to REQUIRE people to lie? Interesting. Im sort of playing devil's advocate here, but Im not 100% sure where I stand on this one. I can certainly see your point, as it is a matter of presenting an uncomfortable environment. hmm.

For the record, I never respond to comments when someone quotes my text and types colored text inside the quoted text box. That is a huge pet peeve of mine, I consider it rude and lazy. Please learn to use multi quote.

Your argument is that I should have no problem sharing communal housing and toilet facilities with openly gay men, since there are closeted gay men already in the military that I don't know about, so what's the difference.

There is a big difference. Let's say I successfully fooled the Army into believing I was a woman, and shared communal housing and toilet facilities with other women. They would assume I was a woman, and would have no issue with that, because all enlisted people in the military that live in government housing share sleeping, showering, and toilet facilities with others of the same sex.

But let's say one day I was discovered to be a man after having a wardrobe malfunction and losing my tape. Should they allow me to just continue sharing sleeping, shower, and bathroom facilities with the women, and expect the women to be ok with that?

The answer to the above absurd question should be obvious. I am seriously astounded we are even having this conversation.

I never slept in a room with less than 4 other men in the Army. The sleeping room sizes are between 4 and 50 per room, at least that's the deal when I was in. You shower, shave, and do everything with little to no privacy. This is simply a matter of human rights.

I am entitled, and have the HUMAN RIGHT, to insist on not being required to carry out my personal hygiene regime in front of others who I know are sexually oriented toward people of my gender.

Like I said above, you can completely eliminate my objection by creating separate quarters in the military for gay men. I agree gay men should have every right that straight men have, except in cases like this one where mutual exercise of those rights would create an absurd or unconscionable situation.

LFJC · 01-23-2009, 07:08 AM

So then morally - in this case it is acceptable to have a policy of deception and lies? Everyone else should lie for the high minded principle of making others comfortable?

Gay people should lie so that you feel comfortable? Straight people should lie and pretend that there are no gay people there.

Your example of gender falls apart. Youre comparing apples and oranges. Gay men are not physically different in appearance than straight men.

You have already showered and been naked with gay men. And it didnt bother you. At all. Because they lied. Remember standards of conduct would not change. So theoretically you would have the same exact experience as you have previously had. All actions conversations and experiences would be identical. Your argument is that if they allowed it, you would be uncomfortable in knowing. I think its a bit naive to think you didnt know while you were there, or that most people didnt. Surely you didnt assume that every single person you encountered was straight?

I think thats just a case of being a bit too uptight about who you are in close proximity to.

However, I *do* think your solution of separate housing might be the way to go. I find it silly, but Ive come to accept that certain predjudices cant be easily eradicated.

As for the multi-quote thing, Im not a mind-reader. There is no way I could've ever known thats a pet peeve. Neither have I encountered anyone else who considered using the tools provided by their own site rude. My apologies for offending your previously undisclosed standards

(i will multi quote going forward. Sorry, I just didnt know)

OK , so given your previous insights into the topic, lets carry it forward a bit.

Since it is probable that that "dont ask dont tell" standard is going away, what impact do you forsee on the military as a whole? On recruiting?

Ruzan · 01-29-2009, 10:57 AM

LFJC, I can see your point as well, but..

The way you are putting it, gay men should therefore be sharing showers and bunks with straight women.

I know straight males were already showering and bunking with homosexual males. But that causes no uncomfortable feelings, as they don't have to worry about who is staring at them sexually and who is not, as no ones sexuality matters.

Imho, making hedro males shower and live with homosexual males is the same as opening the female showers to the straight guys. Its a very uncomfortable situation and is only asking for trouble.

Eric · 01-29-2009, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruzan

LFJC, I can see your point as well, but..

The way you are putting it, gay men should therefore be sharing showers and bunks with straight women.

I know straight males were already showering and bunking with homosexual males. But that causes no uncomfortable feelings, as they don't have to worry about who is staring at them sexually and who is not, as no ones sexuality matters.

Imho, making hedro males shower and live with homosexual males is the same as opening the female showers to the straight guys. Its a very uncomfortable situation and is only asking for trouble.

Well stated, and I very strongly agree.

This is my only objection to gays in the military. I think that if the military provided separate sleeping and bath facilities for gay and straight soldiers, there could be no further legitimate objection from anyone.

LFJC · 01-30-2009, 11:34 AM

I wonder though. Do you think the military will do that? If Tomorrow Dont ask Dont tell ended, how would the military respond? Do you think they are inclined to give segregated housing bathing etc? or Do you think they will just keep it split by gender. While Im starting to agree with Eric on the separation thing, I wonder if that is what they will actually do?

01-15-2009, 05:39 AM	#1 (permalink)
LFJC Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 99 My Photos: (0)	Dont Ask, Dont Tell... at an end? Our incoming President has declared that it is his intention to end the policy of "dont ask , dont tell" in the military sometime during his first term. He cannot do so unilaterally but with a democratic majority it is expected that such a measure would pass easily. My question is: What are your thoughts on this? I dont wish to debate the "rightness or wrongness" of homosexuality. What do you think specifically of the policy and should it be removed or allowed to continue. Bear in mind the following: 1.) There are already many gay people in the military 2.) Standards of conduct would not change. thoughts? __________________ *"Fossils came to exist during the flood. So did oil and all that. Dinosaurs lived with man, and were called dragons until the 1800s"* <--Fanatical Theory ,2008

01-19-2009, 04:38 PM	#2 (permalink)
Eric Community Manager Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: San Jose, California Posts: 193 My Photos: (5)	Re: Dont Ask, Dont Tell... at an end? I was in the military. What you may not understand are the reasons that men in the military don't want openly gay men in the military. Here's why: When I was in the Army, I had to shower butt naked with 50 other men at the same time. You are assigned to sleeping quarters and have little or no say over who you share quarters with. In basic training and in field exercises, we always had to share open air latrines, without dividers between the commodes. I don't want to share housing, toilet, and shower facilities with other human beings whose are sexually oriented to my sex. I don't think that's an unreasonable request, seeing as how men and women have had exactly that arrangement since invention of the wall. So if you allow openly gay men in the military, the next thing you need to do is eliminate female housing, toilet, and shower facilities, and make everything co-ed. Women who say that straight men should be required to shower, defecate, and sleep next to gay men should be required to do the same with straight men. HOW IS THERE A DIFFERENCE? Straight people have rights too. I have the right not to be required to share intimate hygenic, housing, and toilet facilities with any person who I know is sexually oriented toward people of my sex. Now, if they provide separate gay and straight housing, I would strongly agree with you that neither I nor any other person has the right to object to that. I love gay people. Jesus loves gay people. But you do not have the right to make me share communal housing and toilet facilities with openly gay people. __________________

01-23-2009, 07:08 AM	#5 (permalink)
LFJC Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 99 My Photos: (0)	Re: Dont Ask, Dont Tell... at an end? So then morally - in this case it is acceptable to have a policy of deception and lies? Everyone else should lie for the high minded principle of making others comfortable? Gay people should lie so that you feel comfortable? Straight people should lie and pretend that there are no gay people there. Your example of gender falls apart. Youre comparing apples and oranges. Gay men are not physically different in appearance than straight men. You have already showered and been naked with gay men. And it didnt bother you. At all. Because they lied. Remember standards of conduct would not change. So theoretically you would have the same exact experience as you have previously had. All actions conversations and experiences would be identical. Your argument is that if they allowed it, you would be uncomfortable in knowing. I think its a bit naive to think you didnt know while you were there, or that most people didnt. Surely you didnt assume that every single person you encountered was straight? I think thats just a case of being a bit too uptight about who you are in close proximity to. However, I do think your solution of separate housing might be the way to go. I find it silly, but Ive come to accept that certain predjudices cant be easily eradicated. As for the multi-quote thing, Im not a mind-reader. There is no way I could've ever known thats a pet peeve. Neither have I encountered anyone else who considered using the tools provided by their own site rude. My apologies for offending your previously undisclosed standards (i will multi quote going forward. Sorry, I just didnt know) OK , so given your previous insights into the topic, lets carry it forward a bit. Since it is probable that that "dont ask dont tell" standard is going away, what impact do you forsee on the military as a whole? On recruiting? __________________ *"Fossils came to exist during the flood. So did oil and all that. Dinosaurs lived with man, and were called dragons until the 1800s"* <--Fanatical Theory ,2008

01-29-2009, 10:57 AM	#6 (permalink)
Ruzan Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Indiana Posts: 106 My Photos: (1)	Re: Dont Ask, Dont Tell... at an end? LFJC, I can see your point as well, but.. The way you are putting it, gay men should therefore be sharing showers and bunks with straight women. I know straight males were already showering and bunking with homosexual males. But that causes no uncomfortable feelings, as they don't have to worry about who is staring at them sexually and who is not, as no ones sexuality matters. Imho, making hedro males shower and live with homosexual males is the same as opening the female showers to the straight guys. Its a very uncomfortable situation and is only asking for trouble. __________________ "In his heart a man plans his course, but the Lord determines his steps." Proverbs 16:9

01-30-2009, 11:34 AM	#8 (permalink)
LFJC Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 99 My Photos: (0)	Re: Dont Ask, Dont Tell... at an end? I wonder though. Do you think the military will do that? If Tomorrow Dont ask Dont tell ended, how would the military respond? Do you think they are inclined to give segregated housing bathing etc? or Do you think they will just keep it split by gender. While Im starting to agree with Eric on the separation thing, I wonder if that is what they will actually do? __________________ *"Fossils came to exist during the flood. So did oil and all that. Dinosaurs lived with man, and were called dragons until the 1800s"* <--Fanatical Theory ,2008