Do we humans truly have Free Will?

Duo · 10-13-2008, 01:57 PM

The title says it all.

Do we truly have free will on this earth? Or, are we all predestined to live out our fates as planned by God?

I ask this because certain things in the bible directly conflict the concept of free will, and that is a big issue because if we don't really have free will, then we can't choose to be saved by God, God would have to choose us, and that means that everyone in the world would be pre-determined before birth whether or not they would enter Heaven/Hell.

One thing that comes to mind is this :

Judas is the one who sold away Jesus, for 31 pieces of silver ( number may be off it's been awhile! lol )

My question, is what if Judas did not sell Jesus over, what if he did not make that deal, what if he did something else, that resulted in Jesus not being crucified, this small detail, if changed, results in a cataclysmic outcome for the rest of the world no?

If Jesus lived, then the rest of the world would not gain entry into heaven, thus the fate of the world would be doomed forever, and essentially the devil would have won, because no one would be allowed in heaven.

But as we all know Jesus was crucified, and thus the world was saved, and allowed access into heaven, but wouldn't that mean God interfered? Or, that The world being saved was really just a random chance, if God cannot control free will, then how did Jesus know what was going to happen? He foresaw the future, and told everyone what parts they were going to play, before it even happened.

Also, what if Peter did not deny Jesus? What if he said "yes, I know this man, he is my teacher" That would've meant certain death for him I am pretty sure, so that would mean that peter would not be the "rock" of the church, but he did deny Jesus, which allowed the "proper" events to unfold.

These events, among others, really make me wonder how people, who have faith, believe in free will, I am not meaning to offend, it has just always been a glaring flaw in my mind, because in order for these events to of happened that way, you must either be willing to accept that :

A) God interfered and thus free will as we know it, is a delusion.

B) Random chance, along with human error is what carved our world today, and God had very little to do with the events that unfolded.

To elaborate on B more; If God simply put the actors in their place, but without a script, instead with free will, then God himself could not have foreseen what would've happened, or maybe he foresaw every possible outcome, but did not know which one the actors would choose, but this is very conflicting because he is God, he is the almighty, so how can he leave the fate of the entire world to chance? How can he go on nothing more then a whim.

Basically if Free will does exist, then that implies that God, like humans, has hope, hope that we "choose" the right path, and hope that we do what is in his favor.

But again this is very conflicting because the person in discussion is God. He is supposed to know everything, he is the creator.

Anyways I have yet to reach the truth behind either theory ( free will or predestination ) and so I will continue my search.

Discuss!

Edit : I will pull up better examples as I research them more.

TommyStrand · 10-13-2008, 03:04 PM

Deuteronomy 30:19
"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:"

I am working, and this is just one verse I quickly pulled out. The Bible is clear that we have free will. We are given the choice to do what we want, and we do.

God also says the He knows us, before we were born:

Jeremiah 1:5b
"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee;"

God is outside of time, and He knew how I would act and what I would choose even before He made the earth.

Now, because God knows the heart of every man, He knew what we would chose and who would acknowledge Him before He made us, and thus He called us before we were born.

I understand that you wondered about this duo, many people do, and it is good to ask questions...

Some people use this as an excuse though for hoping not to be responsible for their actions, and an excuse for calling God evil, as if He decided who was going to be saved, with no real choice of our own. Which of course, is wrong. They simply forget that God is outside of time and space, and thus had His plans ready a long long time ago.

Genesis 1:1
"In the beginning (that's time)God created the heaven (that's space)and the earth(that's matter)."

Celebration · 10-14-2008, 01:16 AM

I enjoy thinking of the concept of every possibility existing at once. So, I believe that free will is about choosing where to place our consciousness.

Maybe there is a bible story out there where Jesus was never betrayed (or never existed at all), but for some reason your consciousness is choosing to experience this reality.

Maggie

TommyStrand · 10-14-2008, 04:54 AM

Maybe the dingo ate your baby. Maybe the flying spaghetti monster is real.

I agree with many non-christians that I talk to int hat we should not believe anything, just because someone says so. I would never urge anyone to believe in God based on nothing at all.

I think Christianity as told in the Bible is the most supported and logical point of view to the world, of all theories out there. Hehe, I do not want to get into another "evidence for beliefs" in this thread - as we have do have that in other threads - lets keep this on subject: "do we have free will". We have free will to believe anything we want. And we should respect all people, and accept that they do believe anything they want. Not all theories are equal however.

I want to conclude with this funny joke, which is the same world-view some people live by - click here =) The whole thing is hilarious, but what I have in mind is the part about Bill Clinton.

the_zeeba · 10-14-2008, 06:49 AM

wow good question oro

The Bible clearly teaches Gods sovereignty as well as mans free will.

and it hurts my brain to think about right now so ill come back and post later when i fell better :P

Faabio · 10-14-2008, 04:59 PM

Both fate and free will are present in our lives.

Things like race, gender, location of birth are all fate, but you can do anything you want in life so that's where free will comes into play~!

PS ~ I didn't read any of the posts in this thread so yea.

Lewz · 10-14-2008, 11:30 PM

Yes we do Next?

TommyStrand · 10-15-2008, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lewz

Yes we do Next?

Haha. That reminded me of the British series "The Office"

Interviewer: Do you resent Neil?
David Brent: The man or the boss?
Interviewer: Either.
David Brent: Neither. Next!

A fantastic series and scene

Lewz · 10-15-2008, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TommyStrand

Haha. That reminded me of the British series "The Office"

Interviewer: Do you resent Neil?
David Brent: The man or the boss?
Interviewer: Either.
David Brent: Neither. Next!

A fantastic series and scene

lol

Cherena · 10-17-2008, 03:51 PM

I believe it's something like my relationships with my children.

There is a wide road I set before them with lots of little side roads and cul-de-sacs along the way but basically, as long as they stay headed in the direction of the main road (God's plan), they are free to explore these areas as they choose (free will) and their relationship with me is good and they will end up in a good place as adults: productive and happy members of society.

If they go too far off the main road and into the scary dark places, they will suffer the harsh consequences of those choices, they will undermine the foundation of my relationship with them and could ultimately end up in a very bad place as adults.

Within my human limitations, I have a pretty good idea of what each of these "endings" could be for my children yet I do allow them the freedom to make as many choices for themselves as I can and love them, no matter what they choose and no matter the consequences they sometimes must suffer because of bad ones.

Since I don't have God's wisdom and ability to influence outcomes but totally trust that He loves me and my children, I rely on my faith and that love to guide them when I can't....and to keep my sanity, at times. = )

So, yes, I believe He has given us true free will and I also believe there is a larger divine plan that I am ultimately a part of (though an infintessimally small one) but no, I do not believe that every decision I make in my life is pre-ordained.

10-13-2008, 01:57 PM	#1 (permalink)
Duo Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 135 My Photos: (0)	Do we humans truly have Free Will? The title says it all. Do we truly have free will on this earth? Or, are we all predestined to live out our fates as planned by God? I ask this because certain things in the bible directly conflict the concept of free will, and that is a big issue because if we don't really have free will, then we can't choose to be saved by God, God would have to choose us, and that means that everyone in the world would be pre-determined before birth whether or not they would enter Heaven/Hell. One thing that comes to mind is this : Judas is the one who sold away Jesus, for 31 pieces of silver ( number may be off it's been awhile! lol ) My question, is what if Judas did not sell Jesus over, what if he did not make that deal, what if he did something else, that resulted in Jesus not being crucified, this small detail, if changed, results in a cataclysmic outcome for the rest of the world no? If Jesus lived, then the rest of the world would not gain entry into heaven, thus the fate of the world would be doomed forever, and essentially the devil would have won, because no one would be allowed in heaven. But as we all know Jesus was crucified, and thus the world was saved, and allowed access into heaven, but wouldn't that mean God interfered? Or, that The world being saved was really just a random chance, if God cannot control free will, then how did Jesus know what was going to happen? He foresaw the future, and told everyone what parts they were going to play, before it even happened. Also, what if Peter did not deny Jesus? What if he said "yes, I know this man, he is my teacher" That would've meant certain death for him I am pretty sure, so that would mean that peter would not be the "rock" of the church, but he did deny Jesus, which allowed the "proper" events to unfold. These events, among others, really make me wonder how people, who have faith, believe in free will, I am not meaning to offend, it has just always been a glaring flaw in my mind, because in order for these events to of happened that way, you must either be willing to accept that : A) God interfered and thus free will as we know it, is a delusion. B) Random chance, along with human error is what carved our world today, and God had very little to do with the events that unfolded. To elaborate on B more; If God simply put the actors in their place, but without a script, instead with free will, then God himself could not have foreseen what would've happened, or maybe he foresaw every possible outcome, but did not know which one the actors would choose, but this is very conflicting because he is God, he is the almighty, so how can he leave the fate of the entire world to chance? How can he go on nothing more then a whim. Basically if Free will does exist, then that implies that God, like humans, has hope, hope that we "choose" the right path, and hope that we do what is in his favor. But again this is very conflicting because the person in discussion is God. He is supposed to know everything, he is the creator. Anyways I have yet to reach the truth behind either theory ( free will or predestination ) and so I will continue my search. Discuss! Edit : I will pull up better examples as I research them more. __________________ Lewz and Jesus are my homeboys. "Imagination and Memory are but one thing, which for diverse considerations have diverse names." Last edited by Duo; 10-13-2008 at 02:00 PM.

10-13-2008, 03:04 PM	#2 (permalink)
TommyStrand Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Sandnes, Norway Posts: 151 My Photos: (0)	Re: Do we humans truly have Free Will? Deuteronomy 30:19 "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:" I am working, and this is just one verse I quickly pulled out. The Bible is clear that we have free will. We are given the choice to do what we want, and we do. God also says the He knows us, before we were born: Jeremiah 1:5b "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee;" God is outside of time, and He knew how I would act and what I would choose even before He made the earth. Now, because God knows the heart of every man, He knew what we would chose and who would acknowledge Him before He made us, and thus He called us before we were born. I understand that you wondered about this duo, many people do, and it is good to ask questions... Some people use this as an excuse though for hoping not to be responsible for their actions, and an excuse for calling God evil, as if He decided who was going to be saved, with no real choice of our own. Which of course, is wrong. They simply forget that God is outside of time and space, and thus had His plans ready a long long time ago. Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning (that's time)God created the heaven (that's space)and the earth(that's matter)."

10-14-2008, 01:16 AM	#3 (permalink)
Celebration Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 20 My Photos: (0)	Re: Do we humans truly have Free Will? I enjoy thinking of the concept of every possibility existing at once. So, I believe that free will is about choosing where to place our consciousness. Maybe there is a bible story out there where Jesus was never betrayed (or never existed at all), but for some reason your consciousness is choosing to experience this reality. Maggie

10-14-2008, 04:54 AM	#4 (permalink)
TommyStrand Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Sandnes, Norway Posts: 151 My Photos: (0)	Re: Do we humans truly have Free Will? Maybe the dingo ate your baby. Maybe the flying spaghetti monster is real. I agree with many non-christians that I talk to int hat we should not believe anything, just because someone says so. I would never urge anyone to believe in God based on nothing at all. I think Christianity as told in the Bible is the most supported and logical point of view to the world, of all theories out there. Hehe, I do not want to get into another "evidence for beliefs" in this thread - as we have do have that in other threads - lets keep this on subject: "do we have free will". We have free will to believe anything we want. And we should respect all people, and accept that they do believe anything they want. Not all theories are equal however. I want to conclude with this funny joke, which is the same world-view some people live by - click here =) The whole thing is hilarious, but what I have in mind is the part about Bill Clinton. Last edited by TommyStrand; 10-14-2008 at 04:56 AM.

10-14-2008, 06:49 AM	#5 (permalink)
the_zeeba Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 119 My Photos: (1)	Re: Do we humans truly have Free Will? wow good question oro The Bible clearly teaches Gods sovereignty as well as mans free will. and it hurts my brain to think about right now so ill come back and post later when i fell better :P __________________ evidence cannot create faith; it can only confirm it

10-14-2008, 04:59 PM	#6 (permalink)
Faabio Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 36 My Photos: (1)	Re: Do we humans truly have Free Will? Both fate and free will are present in our lives. Things like race, gender, location of birth are all fate, but you can do anything you want in life so that's where free will comes into play~! PS ~ I didn't read any of the posts in this thread so yea.

10-14-2008, 11:30 PM	#7 (permalink)
Lewz Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Boston Posts: 154 My Photos: (0)	Re: Do we humans truly have Free Will? Yes we do Next?

10-17-2008, 03:51 PM	#10 (permalink)
Cherena Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 3 My Photos: (0)	Re: Do we humans truly have Free Will? I believe it's something like my relationships with my children. There is a wide road I set before them with lots of little side roads and cul-de-sacs along the way but basically, as long as they stay headed in the direction of the main road (God's plan), they are free to explore these areas as they choose (free will) and their relationship with me is good and they will end up in a good place as adults: productive and happy members of society. If they go too far off the main road and into the scary dark places, they will suffer the harsh consequences of those choices, they will undermine the foundation of my relationship with them and could ultimately end up in a very bad place as adults. Within my human limitations, I have a pretty good idea of what each of these "endings" could be for my children yet I do allow them the freedom to make as many choices for themselves as I can and love them, no matter what they choose and no matter the consequences they sometimes must suffer because of bad ones. Since I don't have God's wisdom and ability to influence outcomes but totally trust that He loves me and my children, I rely on my faith and that love to guide them when I can't....and to keep my sanity, at times. = ) So, yes, I believe He has given us true free will and I also believe there is a larger divine plan that I am ultimately a part of (though an infintessimally small one) but no, I do not believe that every decision I make in my life is pre-ordained.