Your thoughts on.. (mature conversation)

adam person · 10-01-2008, 12:40 AM

About a year or two ago I started going to this small church and they'd have a personal group for each age division in the youth group. Like 10th and 11th graders. Although it wasn't really strict, most of the time I went to a small group with the same 3-4 guys everytime. We'd usually discuss stuff like Gods view on usage of drugs since 4 of us were all known to do drugs myself included. We'd talk about how or when we did them as an accountability so as to shame us into not doing them anymore. Also we'd discuss other things like current events and how they effected us. It was pretty open and in your face discussion, and there was no show of restraint on what we discussed. We were fortunate enough to have a younger adult with our group who was not only understanding but open to all viewpoints both negative and positive.

Well once my group did not meet so I joined another group for the night and they opened up with the most bizarre and awkward conversation I have ever heard in my life. They all looked at each other and one finally burst out SATURDAY NIGHT and started looking extremely embarressed. I didn't know whether they were messing with me, or dead serious so I just stayed Silent. Then another guy said something about its been 6 months ! Everyone congratulated him and then they asked me.. Well I had no clue so I asked what they were talking about.

Well they were discussing when the last time they masturbated and had their own accountability. I merely shrugged and said I don't remember, but could vividly remember that the night before I had spent about 5 minutes before bed.

What I don't understand is why people think masturbation is such a negative thing. Yes, people usually look at porn. Yes it is self pleasing and I can't see one reason why God would enjoy any productive end it might achieve. I know I'm not married, but would it still be negative then? Would Masturbation include when you do not want to have a child so you go elsewhere?

What are your thoughts/feelings on this commonplace practice and should we feel guilty in certain circumstances for masturbating?

OldPaths · 10-01-2008, 06:46 AM

I think you answer your own question. It's associated with sin, lust, lack of self-control, pleasures the flesh and you can't see even on thing that God would find desireable in it.

We're to really subject the body to discipline. Not in any strange way, but to let the desires of the body lead our behaviours is not the best way forward. Food can be another place where we lack this self control and indulge the cravings of our belly. The Scriptures talk of those whose god is in their stomachs - and I think there is a fundamental sense in which masturbation often leads that 'god' a little futher south...

Guilt? If you're feeling guilty, it's a pretty sure indication that you've transgressed a moral rule you have for yourself. Your real course of action, then, is to determine whether the rule is based on God's will - or simply something you've constructed for yourself. If the former, then yeah - guilt is (often) a natural consequence of sin. If the latter, then it's up to you. If you're using the rule to help you live a more disciplined life, it can be a good thing. If you're using it to make yourself 'right with God', then you're basically being a Pharisee and rejecting the truth.

For what it's worth, my personal opinion is that it is very VERY difficult to engage in masturbation without sin - perhaps not in the act itself - but in all the deceptive and peripheral sins you mention that so often accompany the practice.

LFJC · 10-01-2008, 01:28 PM

I doubt its bad in the eyes of God. It doesnt harm anyone, and most psychologists will tell you its perfectly natural.

OldPaths · 10-01-2008, 03:20 PM

Indwelling sin is perfectly 'natural' - but doesn't mean God is neutral on the subject. It's not a terribly compelling argument, with due respect.

And it does harm folks. Sure, it's not like raping someone, but fantasy is a normative for the act and that usually invovles pornography. Not always, but often. And where you have porn, you have lots of cash and, inevitably, exploitation of people. Our actions have consequences and just because 'everyone does it' doesn't make it right.

Lewz · 10-01-2008, 03:37 PM

lol so your suggesting masturbating and fantasizing in your head supports pornography and the exploitation of people?? im sorry but that doesn't seem to be a terribly compellings argument with all due respect.

Lewz · 10-01-2008, 03:42 PM

There's a big difference btw being a slave to your bodies desires and responding to them. When your hungary, you eat, when you want something sweet, you might even eat a candy, when your tired, your sleep, when your horny, you might masturbate.

If your sitting in your room all day, doing any these id have some concern. But the act of simply responding isn't sinful and its a stretch to say it is. Frankly if it wasnt sexual we woudlnt be having this discussion

adam person · 10-01-2008, 05:12 PM

The last post is exactly what I was wondering about. If you're just responding to a desire, without the whole porn thing is it still a sin.

There are many urges in our bodies that we can and do react to. Ignoring them completely is just as bad as fully indulging them in some aspects. Thanks for the comments everyone.

TommyStrand · 10-02-2008, 04:11 PM

There is at least one line in this. Jesus says that whoever looks upon a woman to lust after her, has already commited adultery with her in his heart. That's Gods word. So at least we know we cant think sexually about another person. That would at least limit down the activity I'm sure.

Raven · 10-02-2008, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TommyStrand

There is at least one line in this. Jesus says that whoever looks upon a woman to lust after her, has already commited adultery with her in his heart. That's Gods word. So at least we know we cant think sexually about another person. That would at least limit down the activity I'm sure.

That's exactly the passage that came to mind when I started reading this thread. Matthew 5:27-28(NIV) "You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.".

...Unless of course, you are married, and are thinking of your wife when you were doing said activity!

If a person chooses not to take the bible literally, it's open for interpretation I suppose, but doing that (not taking it literally) opens up another can of worms.

Oizen · 10-02-2008, 06:00 PM

I find this relative as, I was shocked to discover that "it is better to spill your seed in the belly of a whore than spill it on the ground." is actually not in the Bible although it is a common preaching.

Quote:

Originally Posted by http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/sayings.html

A commonly referenced proverb to highlight the evils of masturbation frequently mistaken as a biblical admonition is typically phrased as, "It is better to cast your seed in the belly of a whore than to spill it on the ground." The fact is, though, this is not anything to be found in the pages of Scripture. We get this question fairly often and have been trying to track down the origin of the saying, but alas, with no luck. While not certain of the phrase's exact origin, it does seem to be a false extrapolation of Genesis 38 and the story of Onan, Tamar, and Judah.

According to Ancient Near Eastern culture, it would have been the responsibility of Onan to impregnate his dead brother's wife that his brother's line might continue. Selfishly, Onan did not wish any of his offspring to bear any name other than his own; and so while he did, in fact, take up the responsibility of sexual relations with his brother's wife, he would not ejaculate inside her but instead practiced the withdrawal method of birth control. God punished Onan for his wickedness and greed by putting him to death (and not, as is popularly believed, for masturbating). The rest of the narrative features the wife, Tamar, posing as a prostitute and seducing Onan's father, Judah. By him, she conceives and bears a son from whom Christ would descend. And God does not strike Judah or punish him in any way in the narrative.

So it appears that some cynic had taken the veneer of the tale and crafted a wry commentary that has come to be known as actual Scripture (unfortunately). In the end, the admonition is far from biblical and has nothing to do with masturbation.

I ran accross it in this thread: http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=88450

10-01-2008, 12:40 AM	#1 (permalink)
adam person Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Lake Charles, Louisiana Posts: 19 My Photos: (0)	Your thoughts on.. (mature conversation) About a year or two ago I started going to this small church and they'd have a personal group for each age division in the youth group. Like 10th and 11th graders. Although it wasn't really strict, most of the time I went to a small group with the same 3-4 guys everytime. We'd usually discuss stuff like Gods view on usage of drugs since 4 of us were all known to do drugs myself included. We'd talk about how or when we did them as an accountability so as to shame us into not doing them anymore. Also we'd discuss other things like current events and how they effected us. It was pretty open and in your face discussion, and there was no show of restraint on what we discussed. We were fortunate enough to have a younger adult with our group who was not only understanding but open to all viewpoints both negative and positive. Well once my group did not meet so I joined another group for the night and they opened up with the most bizarre and awkward conversation I have ever heard in my life. They all looked at each other and one finally burst out SATURDAY NIGHT and started looking extremely embarressed. I didn't know whether they were messing with me, or dead serious so I just stayed Silent. Then another guy said something about its been 6 months ! Everyone congratulated him and then they asked me.. Well I had no clue so I asked what they were talking about. Well they were discussing when the last time they masturbated and had their own accountability. I merely shrugged and said I don't remember, but could vividly remember that the night before I had spent about 5 minutes before bed. What I don't understand is why people think masturbation is such a negative thing. Yes, people usually look at porn. Yes it is self pleasing and I can't see one reason why God would enjoy any productive end it might achieve. I know I'm not married, but would it still be negative then? Would Masturbation include when you do not want to have a child so you go elsewhere? What are your thoughts/feelings on this commonplace practice and should we feel guilty in certain circumstances for masturbating?

10-01-2008, 06:46 AM	#2 (permalink)
OldPaths Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 13 My Photos: (0)	Re: Your thoughts on.. (mature conversation) I think you answer your own question. It's associated with sin, lust, lack of self-control, pleasures the flesh and you can't see even on thing that God would find desireable in it. We're to really subject the body to discipline. Not in any strange way, but to let the desires of the body lead our behaviours is not the best way forward. Food can be another place where we lack this self control and indulge the cravings of our belly. The Scriptures talk of those whose god is in their stomachs - and I think there is a fundamental sense in which masturbation often leads that 'god' a little futher south... Guilt? If you're feeling guilty, it's a pretty sure indication that you've transgressed a moral rule you have for yourself. Your real course of action, then, is to determine whether the rule is based on God's will - or simply something you've constructed for yourself. If the former, then yeah - guilt is (often) a natural consequence of sin. If the latter, then it's up to you. If you're using the rule to help you live a more disciplined life, it can be a good thing. If you're using it to make yourself 'right with God', then you're basically being a Pharisee and rejecting the truth. For what it's worth, my personal opinion is that it is very VERY difficult to engage in masturbation without sin - perhaps not in the act itself - but in all the deceptive and peripheral sins you mention that so often accompany the practice.

10-01-2008, 01:28 PM	#3 (permalink)
LFJC Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 99 My Photos: (0)	Re: Your thoughts on.. (mature conversation) I doubt its bad in the eyes of God. It doesnt harm anyone, and most psychologists will tell you its perfectly natural.

10-01-2008, 03:20 PM	#4 (permalink)
OldPaths Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 13 My Photos: (0)	Re: Your thoughts on.. (mature conversation) Indwelling sin is perfectly 'natural' - but doesn't mean God is neutral on the subject. It's not a terribly compelling argument, with due respect. And it does harm folks. Sure, it's not like raping someone, but fantasy is a normative for the act and that usually invovles pornography. Not always, but often. And where you have porn, you have lots of cash and, inevitably, exploitation of people. Our actions have consequences and just because 'everyone does it' doesn't make it right.

10-01-2008, 03:37 PM	#5 (permalink)
Lewz Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Boston Posts: 154 My Photos: (0)	Re: Your thoughts on.. (mature conversation) lol so your suggesting masturbating and fantasizing in your head supports pornography and the exploitation of people?? im sorry but that doesn't seem to be a terribly compellings argument with all due respect.

10-01-2008, 03:42 PM	#6 (permalink)
Lewz Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Boston Posts: 154 My Photos: (0)	Re: Your thoughts on.. (mature conversation) There's a big difference btw being a slave to your bodies desires and responding to them. When your hungary, you eat, when you want something sweet, you might even eat a candy, when your tired, your sleep, when your horny, you might masturbate. If your sitting in your room all day, doing any these id have some concern. But the act of simply responding isn't sinful and its a stretch to say it is. Frankly if it wasnt sexual we woudlnt be having this discussion

10-01-2008, 05:12 PM	#7 (permalink)
adam person Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Lake Charles, Louisiana Posts: 19 My Photos: (0)	Re: Your thoughts on.. (mature conversation) The last post is exactly what I was wondering about. If you're just responding to a desire, without the whole porn thing is it still a sin. There are many urges in our bodies that we can and do react to. Ignoring them completely is just as bad as fully indulging them in some aspects. Thanks for the comments everyone. __________________

10-02-2008, 04:11 PM	#8 (permalink)
TommyStrand Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Sandnes, Norway Posts: 151 My Photos: (0)	Re: Your thoughts on.. (mature conversation) There is at least one line in this. Jesus says that whoever looks upon a woman to lust after her, has already commited adultery with her in his heart. That's Gods word. So at least we know we cant think sexually about another person. That would at least limit down the activity I'm sure.